Re your question "what exactly are they fighting about?", I would point to two factors:
1. Information polarization. I have been phone banking for Harris for awhile now, and earlier on we were calling voters whose allegiances we didn't know yet, and got a bunch of Trump supporters. One of those said to me, in all seriousness, that Trump w…
Re your question "what exactly are they fighting about?", I would point to two factors:
1. Information polarization. I have been phone banking for Harris for awhile now, and earlier on we were calling voters whose allegiances we didn't know yet, and got a bunch of Trump supporters. One of those said to me, in all seriousness, that Trump was "an honest man and a Christian man". She clearly had some information environment that caused her to believe that, and it's mysterious to most of us in the reality-based community how a functional adult could be in such an environment. This may be an outlier example, but when it comes to basic empirical questions like "what happened on January 6th, 2021" there are clearly deep disagreements over facts, not just values.
2. Character polarization. Trump is such an obviously and extraordinarily hideous person that to the blueish half of the country, it is clear that no decent, civilized voter could possibly support him. Yet here's the reddish half of the country supporting him anyway! It is enough to make you lose trust in the moral character, mental capacity, and, well, general trustworthiness of your fellow citizens, in a way that no policy dispute would be. Living in a country where half of the people have shown themselves to be capable of supporting such a person is scary, and that fear drives the anger at places like Rossmoor-- as, no doubt, does the resentment of the reddish folks at being considered morally and/or mentally defective for their choice of presidential candidate.
And the sad thing is that there is no result of this election which will make that mutual resentment and fear go away. We are like spouses who have battered each other physically and psychologically, can see no path to reconciliation given what we have suffered and what we've learned about each other, and can't get a divorce. Have a nice day, as Arnold Kling would say.
Nicolas, Good comment. Here's one way to think about it. Much of the country lives in a fact-free world (a good number in each party). They live in a world of free floating opinions. Then a politician comes along that:
1. Lies about factual issues almost every day.
2. Says what some regard as "uncomfortable truths" that "they" don't want you to hear.
Half the country will think this is the most dishonest politician ever (my view), and the other half will think he's the most honest politician.
I must say that I am amused by Trump supporters. When you point out his flaws, they say "all politicians are like that". When you ask why they like him so much, they say "He's totally unlike other politicians."
Well said if you read it agnosticly, i.e. you could flip the names and it still be true from the red side looking at the blues. The thing though that I think blues miss here is blues are voting against Trump whereas the red vote is a big tent of people voting for Trump or against blues as an entire concept. Nobody could care less on either side about Harris or the GOP. Reds understand the GOP has abandoned them since '04 hence it's all about Trump while blues understand all the elites regardless of party are blue (or crypto-blue) hence it's all about Trump.
That said one specific thing I want to comment on is "true belief that Trump was 'an honest man and a Christian man,'". I think what you missing is relativity (i.e. compared to Harris) and signaling. Sure that person lives in an information bubble, most do on both sides, but Trump signals the right thing. John Oliver recently had an episode about the guy who sang "I'm proud to be an American" where not only does he (Oliver,) mock America, but goes on this rant about Trump and the Bible. And sure that goes over well with his target audience and sure much of his critique is valid but the thing is for that critique to happen you have to have the real material of Trump WITH a Bible, Trump TALKING about the Bible, etc. Your aforementioned person in their information bubble will see bits of that Oliver segment filtered through their media sources where it will confirm both Trump's Christianity (him with a Bible) and the blues hate of Trump and Christianity.
Likewise Trump's willingness to speak provincialy (yes not the right word) perceived truth to power makes him come off as honest and the blues rabid lawfare against him plays into the US underdog narrative which likewise makes him look honest. His actually honestly is irrelevant.
Whereas Harris wouldn't have been caught dead before her recent campaign wearing American flag yoga pants to a non-black church picnic while telling people they need to find Jesus even though none of that is a red/blue matter. It doesn't really matter if Trump is a good Christian or actually honest, what matters here is Trump signals those things and has long before the recent campaign. You don't see Harris on WWE nor for that matter, anything as her whole life up until recently was working on her back for powerful married men at night while spending everyday trying to put every other man in prison out of spite all while avoiding things reds like like the plague such as having children, having a family, being pleasant as a person, overt displays of patriotism and religion, or eating fast food.
So this is a very long post with a lot of things to respond to, but I think the bit at the end where you impugn Harris's character best illustrates the divide I am talking about here.
Harris made a choice not to have biological kids of her own, and is by all accounts a loving stepmother and wife. Forty years ago she dated Willie Brown for what may or may not have been partly transactional reasons. That is, as far as I can tell, a neutral account of the facts.
Donald Trump cheated on his pregnant wife with a porn star, then paid her $150k in hush money to cover it up, then illegally falsified the record of the hush money. Also, he sexually assaulted at least one woman, was found liable for doing so by a jury, and has boasted on tape of groping many others. Again, I think that is a neutral recitation of facts.
The fact that reddish folks like you judge Harris for her pattern of relational conduct more harshly than they judge Trump for his is exactly why blueish folks like me are angry and scared. Because to us, it is pretty obvious that anyone who thinks Harris is worse than Trump on the "family values" dimension has a deeply messed up moral compass and is a product of a brutally misogynist and backward culture. And to know that so many of our fellow citizens still think like that in 2024 is depressing and scary.
Re your question "what exactly are they fighting about?", I would point to two factors:
1. Information polarization. I have been phone banking for Harris for awhile now, and earlier on we were calling voters whose allegiances we didn't know yet, and got a bunch of Trump supporters. One of those said to me, in all seriousness, that Trump was "an honest man and a Christian man". She clearly had some information environment that caused her to believe that, and it's mysterious to most of us in the reality-based community how a functional adult could be in such an environment. This may be an outlier example, but when it comes to basic empirical questions like "what happened on January 6th, 2021" there are clearly deep disagreements over facts, not just values.
2. Character polarization. Trump is such an obviously and extraordinarily hideous person that to the blueish half of the country, it is clear that no decent, civilized voter could possibly support him. Yet here's the reddish half of the country supporting him anyway! It is enough to make you lose trust in the moral character, mental capacity, and, well, general trustworthiness of your fellow citizens, in a way that no policy dispute would be. Living in a country where half of the people have shown themselves to be capable of supporting such a person is scary, and that fear drives the anger at places like Rossmoor-- as, no doubt, does the resentment of the reddish folks at being considered morally and/or mentally defective for their choice of presidential candidate.
And the sad thing is that there is no result of this election which will make that mutual resentment and fear go away. We are like spouses who have battered each other physically and psychologically, can see no path to reconciliation given what we have suffered and what we've learned about each other, and can't get a divorce. Have a nice day, as Arnold Kling would say.
Nicolas, Good comment. Here's one way to think about it. Much of the country lives in a fact-free world (a good number in each party). They live in a world of free floating opinions. Then a politician comes along that:
1. Lies about factual issues almost every day.
2. Says what some regard as "uncomfortable truths" that "they" don't want you to hear.
Half the country will think this is the most dishonest politician ever (my view), and the other half will think he's the most honest politician.
I must say that I am amused by Trump supporters. When you point out his flaws, they say "all politicians are like that". When you ask why they like him so much, they say "He's totally unlike other politicians."
Sorry, I meant Nicholas.
Well said if you read it agnosticly, i.e. you could flip the names and it still be true from the red side looking at the blues. The thing though that I think blues miss here is blues are voting against Trump whereas the red vote is a big tent of people voting for Trump or against blues as an entire concept. Nobody could care less on either side about Harris or the GOP. Reds understand the GOP has abandoned them since '04 hence it's all about Trump while blues understand all the elites regardless of party are blue (or crypto-blue) hence it's all about Trump.
That said one specific thing I want to comment on is "true belief that Trump was 'an honest man and a Christian man,'". I think what you missing is relativity (i.e. compared to Harris) and signaling. Sure that person lives in an information bubble, most do on both sides, but Trump signals the right thing. John Oliver recently had an episode about the guy who sang "I'm proud to be an American" where not only does he (Oliver,) mock America, but goes on this rant about Trump and the Bible. And sure that goes over well with his target audience and sure much of his critique is valid but the thing is for that critique to happen you have to have the real material of Trump WITH a Bible, Trump TALKING about the Bible, etc. Your aforementioned person in their information bubble will see bits of that Oliver segment filtered through their media sources where it will confirm both Trump's Christianity (him with a Bible) and the blues hate of Trump and Christianity.
Likewise Trump's willingness to speak provincialy (yes not the right word) perceived truth to power makes him come off as honest and the blues rabid lawfare against him plays into the US underdog narrative which likewise makes him look honest. His actually honestly is irrelevant.
Whereas Harris wouldn't have been caught dead before her recent campaign wearing American flag yoga pants to a non-black church picnic while telling people they need to find Jesus even though none of that is a red/blue matter. It doesn't really matter if Trump is a good Christian or actually honest, what matters here is Trump signals those things and has long before the recent campaign. You don't see Harris on WWE nor for that matter, anything as her whole life up until recently was working on her back for powerful married men at night while spending everyday trying to put every other man in prison out of spite all while avoiding things reds like like the plague such as having children, having a family, being pleasant as a person, overt displays of patriotism and religion, or eating fast food.
So this is a very long post with a lot of things to respond to, but I think the bit at the end where you impugn Harris's character best illustrates the divide I am talking about here.
Harris made a choice not to have biological kids of her own, and is by all accounts a loving stepmother and wife. Forty years ago she dated Willie Brown for what may or may not have been partly transactional reasons. That is, as far as I can tell, a neutral account of the facts.
Donald Trump cheated on his pregnant wife with a porn star, then paid her $150k in hush money to cover it up, then illegally falsified the record of the hush money. Also, he sexually assaulted at least one woman, was found liable for doing so by a jury, and has boasted on tape of groping many others. Again, I think that is a neutral recitation of facts.
The fact that reddish folks like you judge Harris for her pattern of relational conduct more harshly than they judge Trump for his is exactly why blueish folks like me are angry and scared. Because to us, it is pretty obvious that anyone who thinks Harris is worse than Trump on the "family values" dimension has a deeply messed up moral compass and is a product of a brutally misogynist and backward culture. And to know that so many of our fellow citizens still think like that in 2024 is depressing and scary.